I have been reading a book called Out Of Church Christians and one part
of it refers to the “Wilderness Experience” and how it is biblical and how
people believe that they have been called out of church structures to unlearn
stuff and come back with a “new revelation” and it seems to me to be more of
the same old same old. God did reveal himself to people in Jesus. He doesn’t
need us to get any new revelations until we get the old revelation. All this
stuff about revelations is more Gnostic stuff (spiritualising practical stuff
because it is believed that spiritual is somehow better than physical) that is
deflecting the true message of Jesus that was reflected so graphically in the
story in the New Testament about the rich young ruler (Matt 19.21). This man
asked what he must do to inherit the kingdom and he knew the answer taught in
the Bible. He kept those. But additionally Jesus added that he had to give away
all he had and follow Jesus. He couldn’t. Jesus shows us a radical way and
though many are called, few are chosen, because until you can you are not a
true disciple. We find al sorts of ways to justify not being faithful to him.
Our possessions prove where our hearts lie. If we could all live like this then
we would change the world in a heartbeat. But we can’t so we won’t.

I am not saying I have the faith for this.
I do know that churches spend a lot of time teaching ways to get around this.
One of the ways is that we are taught it is all about eternal life. We are saved
for heaven by believing in Jesus. But believing in Jesus means believing what
he said is true and he said we shouldn’t worry too much about possessions but
have faith in him and his saying that we should first seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness, which is
countercultural, transforming our culture by being different. We aren’t. Our
culture and the culture of the world thus far, have been about “taking care of
number one”. So we make it about heaven and instead of transforming the world
one person at a time as he did, we get them to say a little prayer that will
“save” them and leave them to die in their poverty because he blesses the poor.

We ignore scriptures like the one about the
sheep and the goats or spiritualise them somehow to make sure they don’t refer
to us. But it is clear that Jesus said “if you love me you will obey my
commands”. Which ones? His most important bit of teaching is the Sermon on the
Mount which is almost entirely about people other than the average Christian.
What does this say to us? Am I being overboard? I suppose I am according to the
definition of most churches.

The wilderness experience also seems to be
about getting closer to God and experiencing his presence, worshipping him more
fully and so on and so on. Jesus spoke about a generation that would worship
him in spirit and in truth. I am sure he had had enough of people who danced
around the altar and then went away and treated others badly and lived in
luxury while others starved. He spoke out against those people: us. We mouth
cute Christian platitudes and disobey him by hoarding against our old age while
others starve.

God help me. I am speaking like a lunatic.

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This morning while I was thinking about stuff and reading…the Bible
(Hey even Muslims read it now and then!) I was thinking that, if one is
in leadership and one observes behaviour that is potentially harmful in
one of your leaders that you are trusting to go out and do some more of
the same work, then it is not enough to just tell the person that they
have a “potentially fatal flaw” and to watch out for it. One has the
responsibility to help that person get behind what the cause is of this
flaw, and help them to sort it out. And if it is serious enough, stop
them from doing what is bound to expose others to this flaw, or at
least monitor them until you are sure that it is not going to be
destructive.

Am I right? Anything less would not only be irresponsible.

I have made the same mistake. I released somebody to preach and
invited them to be part of a leadership team when all I really wanted
was to win them over and to maximise their potential. Eventually I had
to uninvite them because it turned out that they were not suitable for
the job, because of 2 things, one was they had too much baggage at that
time, and the other was a clash in values. Both of them serious. It
caused a lot of hurt in them just loaded more hurt onto their already
fragile psyche.

It is not enough to just take a ce la vie attitude with that
because although the Lord uses the Romans 8.28 principle when we mess
up, and this inevitably srfaces a lot of stuff in us that needs to be
dealt with, and should be dealt with, people get hurt.

I think that is why the Bible says that we shouldn’t lay hands on
somebody too soon. We hurt them and no matter how gifted they are, it
can only end in tears.

…..This is what makes me so distrustful of the principle of leadership per se. There is just too much that can go wrong.

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I think we have to forget about the obsession with organised efforts to
conform Christians. That CAN often be less about discipleship and more
about money, power, spiritual laziness, and the effort to be part of a
Hegemony where we are not challenged. Our efforts would be better spend
with personal transformation which will hopefully lead to
transformation of society. If groups of people who are dedicated to
becoming like Christ, meet and infiltrate society with grace and
compassion, being counter-cultural as we reflect an alternative of
caring and sacrifice, we will be closer to Jesus and his disciples,
whom he laid hands on to spread the word and the deed.

It is a challenge for me. Everything is in the Bible abut how to
be. If we started only with the sermon on the mount and applied that
consistently, we would find that the church (as Jesus defined it=
something against which the gates of hell would not prevail) would be
what it was supposed to be, a personal manifestation of a spiritual
transformation that would establish the reign of Christ on the earth!

But that would mean that I would have to take seriously my
availability to Christ’s internal transformation process and leave
behind my laziness and give up my excuses and become yeast, salt, light!

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This morning I am horrified at what I said about leaders yesterday, even if it is of necessity true. We cannot help incarnating our brokenness (wounding, sin whatever you want to call it) into our ministries. Our ministries are often manifestations of our own desire to gain significance. It is human and I have done it and am even more horrified now that I see some of the fruits of what I did with the best of intentions.

is the answer to not have organised church? I don’t think so, it is impossible to avoid some form of organisation. But the burden of pain and despair that is caused by church structures and people who are in leadership positions in such structures is the issue and I wish I knew the answer. There are MANY people who have drifted away from church as a result. Not all of them are pathetic little people who are living out their rebellion and wounding in a bitter and acidic rant against the church and leaders. Many have legitimate problems with the inevitable momentum of the juggernaut called church structure, when good intentions and the “seeing through a glass darkly” mix to apply discipline and then simple pride and ignorance mix to inhibit genuine reconciliation. It is a human condition and it seems like the joke God played on us, because there is no way we can get it right.

GGRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!GRACE!!! GRACE!!!RACE!!! GRACE!!!

We need grace. We need to accept that it is set up so that we will need him and never forget it and will have to be like him and not count every slight as he didn’t and count it and choose to face the hurt and desolation of human relationships and inhale the fragrance of  dependence on him and knowing there is no way to avoid it but to do what we have to do in any case.

I wish I had the answer but I don’t. In the meantime I will choose the route of transformation, where I depend on him, and eat the bitter scroll.

Have mercy on us Lord! Maranatha! Come Lord jesus, come!

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I have always been a leader simply because people are prepared to follow somebody who sounds like they know what the are talking about and who acts with conviction. I am now in a quandary. I am discovering depths of distrust in leaders that I only suspected are there. Did Jesus ever mean for us to give away our lives to church leaders and leaders of nations etc in the way that we do? I suspect not. He says to call nobody father because there is only one Father and he is in heaven. In his Lord’s prayer he teaches us to pray that his Kingdom would come on earth as it does in heaven. I don’t think that this means that we are to follow blindly leaders’ vision of what that means and join organizations which are reflections of each particular leader’s own wounding. I don’t even think that  teams are necessarily a guarantee against that because men gather other men around them that have similar brokenness, so what is likely to come out of their mouths will probably bear out what the “leaders” think in any case.

What is the answer? Communities of like minded adults who take mutual responsibility for each others’ lives and spur each other on to maturity in Christ. He will fulfill the work he has started in us, and he uses people, but church leaders cannot, in more than a peripheral way, be part of that, since, unless they have relationship, they will hardly ever be in a position to dispense justice and discipline redemptively.

I am going to start praying for people to be church with.

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Leaders have such a hard job shame.
I don’t want to be led by anybody but Jesus anymore. I will be led by him as example and as Father and brother. It is much too easy to be wrong and think that you have covered all the bases. Relationship is the answer. Leadership is a cop out both for the leader and the led. It seldom produces real disciples. I want t be a self-led person. I want others to be self-led too. I would rather be a friend and example. It is much harder and genuine. There is no inherent acclaim and credibility.

I am getting to the “{not going to church” place again… I fear…

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I was thinking yesterday in a rare moment of clarity: The church is my family regardless of whether I agree with the way it happens. So the onus is on me to engage and to get to know people in a way that will enable me to trust them enough to actually attend a home cell and learn to trust again and get /receive ministry. Inside this Home Cell I can ask the questions about form. But I need this family. Without them I will die. I love the church because come hell or high water, Jesus loves his bride and HE WILL PRESENT HER WITHOUT SPOT OR WRINKLE. If he can’t do it neighetr can I and I have to trust him to fulfil his word. He said he will build his church. It is because we try and do it that it is a stuff-up. So here I go again into the fray. I will have to make some changes in my life to do this. But it feels right and it will hurt but… well, that is who I am now. A part of this family. For better or worse.

COMMENTS?

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I am wondering if I am not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If i allow myself to be ministered to in church and listen to the sermons with the intention of hearing God speak, and have my own private worship life as well, then there is a place for me to see whether the Lord will offer me the chance of being part of a renewal from within?

dunno

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Other blogs are interesting things. You see people’s opinions and are exposed to other points of view.

I have been reading a blog about house churches
There was a link to another page about house churches. A lot of what they say makes sense to me. But when they start speaking about spiritual authority I feel my hackles rise. “We are submitted to spiritual authority wherever it crosses our path. We
do not believe in “selective submission” which says, in essence,
“I am submitted to this group or that Leader and to no other.” We
do not say “My pastor” or “My Prophet” or “My Apostle
or “My Teacher” or “My Evangelist.” We seek to remain
open to any Pastor, Prophet, Apostle, Teacher, or Evangelist wherever and
whenever their ministry or council touches our lives.”

Heito! I obviously have BIG issues. I realise that I don’t want to be in that place where men have authority over me again. I need DEEP healing or another model of church. Probably both.

My problem is the unrestrained power that we accord church leaders. They seldom want it. At least not knowingly. But somehow we buy into the notion that they have a God-given right.

My answer to this is relationship. I will only accord authority in my life to those I trust and those I trust would of necessity be those I have relationship with. So that puts a limit on things…

Thoughts?

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Sumi, I think you are right about the Spirit of God. God is in the Church and church is where people meet and commune to achieve God’s purposes. If a group of friends are together and they just happen to be having a braai, and somebody needs ministry, and somebody sees it and does it and God’s purposes are achieved, that is church, I think. When we start separating our lives into chunks where some of it is where God reigns and moves freely and other bits are not, then there is a problem. I don’t profess to have the answer but at least I want to be the same person all the way, and not one in church and one out of church. If I am not worshiping God outside of “church” then I should not be worshiping him in church (in the team). Or should I? Worship is worship wherever it happens and even though I don;t sit down and play at my keyboard at home to worship, I find myself praising him in all sorts of circumstances.

But I will not deny that part of my problem with church is “people”. I am still hurting from the church plant fiasco and I don’t trust people to minister to me because it is unsafe. I am not interested in sermons because I have preached them and they have been used against me and I have been accused f spiritual manipulation because I “abused my pulpit” to direct criticism at people, simply because I was one of the people being gossiped about and I preached about gossip. Anyway. At least I am not faking it which I think many people do. And that’s fine for them but I want no part of it… Make sense?